"I have obtained a promise"

We are happy for M2Cers to believe whatever they want to believe, but we also pursue clarity, charity and understanding.

It is easy to corroborate the teachings of the prophets about Cumorah with extrinsic evidence--if you want to.

Clarity in this case involves two voyages to the New World and the implications for what Lehi taught about the New World that the Lord led him to.

8 And behold, it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations; for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance.

9 Wherefore, I, Lehi, have obtained a promise, that inasmuch as those whom the Lord God shall bring out of the land of Jerusalem shall keep his commandments, they shall prosper upon the face of this land; and they shall be kept from all other nations, that they may possess this land unto themselves. 

(2 Nephi 1:8–9)

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A basic premise of M2C is that Lehi landed on the west coast of Mesoamerica in the midst of an extensive Mayan civilization. Some M2Cers also believe the Mulekites landed in Mesoamericn in the midst of an Olmec (Jaredite) civilization.

These theoretical voyages were shown on the map that RLDS scholar L.E. Hills proposed over 100 years ago. 

1917 map published by RLDS scholar L.E. Hills

To make his theory work, Hills put Cumorah in southern Mexico. He specifically rejected what Oliver Cowdery, Joseph Smith, David Whitmer, Brigham Young and everyone else said about Cumorah in New York.

"Cumorah" in Mexico, according to L.E. Hills

LDS leaders specifically rejected what Hills taught and reaffirmed the New York Cumorah, but gradually LDS scholars adopted the Hills theory instead. 

John Sorenson, Jack Welch, Kirk Magleby, Brant Gardner, and all their followers preferred Hills' theory about Cumorah over the teachings of the prophets.

BYU Studies map of Cumorah, based on L.E. Hills, as
adapted by Sorenson/Welch.

Next, Tyler Griffin created a fictional map to represent the Hills/Sorenson/Welch theory for new generations. (Somehow he and his followers think it's a good idea to teach the Book of Mormon using a fictional map more akin to Lord of the Rings than to any real-world setting.)  

Obviously, placing the Nephites and Mulekites in the midst of these Mesoamerican civilizations contradicts Lehi's declarations in verse 8-9. Mesoamerica was the opposite of what Lehi described. Again,

8 And behold, it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations; for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance.

9 Wherefore, I, Lehi, have obtained a promise, that inasmuch as those whom the Lord God shall bring out of the land of Jerusalem shall keep his commandments, they shall prosper upon the face of this land; and they shall be kept from all other nations, that they may possess this land unto themselves. 

(2 Nephi 1:8–9)

We can all see that the Mayans (and Olmecs) were well established nations. Naturally, the M2Cers have a variety of ways to rationalize the incongruity, but the plain language is there for everyone to read.

An alternative to M2C is the idea that Lehi followed ocean and wind currents, crossed the Atlantic, and actually landed in an area that was occupied only by unorganized hunter/gatherers in what is now the southeastern United States, circa 600 BC. 

Book of Mormon voyages and ocean currents

Then, after King Mosiah led the Nephites to Bountiful, the division of the Lamanites and Nephites looked something such as this, which explains why Cumorah is in New York.

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But there's more to it than that.

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The Lord explained to Nephi that if his brothers rebelled against God, they would become a "scourge" to Nephi's descendants.

22 And inasmuch as thou shalt keep my commandments, thou shalt be made a ruler and a teacher over thy brethren.

23 For behold, in that day that they shall rebel against me, I will curse them even with a sore curse, and they shall have no power over thy seed except they shall rebel against me also.

24 And if it so be that they rebel against me, they shall be a scourge unto thy seed, to stir them up in the ways of remembrance.

(1 Nephi 2:22–24)

25 And the Lord God said unto me: They shall be a scourge unto thy seed, to stir them up in remembrance of me; and inasmuch as they will not remember me, and hearken unto my words, they shall scourge them even unto destruction.

(2 Nephi 5:24–25)

According to the text, it was the Lamanites, not the Mayan nations of kings and warriors, who were a scourge to the Nephites.

To repeat: It is easy to corroborate the teachings of the prophets about Cumorah with extrinsic evidence--if you want to.

"ceremony" in Mosiah and Scripture Central

In the ongoing pursuit of clarity, charity and understanding, I posted a peer review of an article on Scripture Central about the term "ceremony" in Mosiah 19:24. 

https://scripturecentralpeerreviews.blogspot.com/2025/07/ceremony-in-mosiah-1924.html

Basically, the term makes perfect sense once we see how Jonathan Edwards used the term.

But because the scholars haven't looked at Edwards, we have Royal Skousen speculating that the term is a "scribal error." We have various Book of Mormon "experts" offering a variety of speculative theories based on assumptions and inferences that lead to a confusing spectrum of apologetic theories.

Of course, given the scholars involved, none of them proposed that Joseph translated the plates correctly using his own language...

Except me.

:)

But hopefully my peer review will lead to improvement in this area going forward.

M2C in the Interpreter-again, as usual

I'm always curious if Interpreter readers think for themselves, do their own research, or merely accept what the Interpreter publishes.  

Because I encourage people to make informed decisions for themselves, and to avoid relying on self-appointed "experts" who reject what Joseph and Oliver taught, I did another peer review of an Interpreter article.

This one is the introduction to a new series of article in the Interpreter, which are resurrecting the 2005 Library of Congress symposium on "the Worlds of Joseph Smith."

We've discussed that several times on this blog. 

This series consists of chapters from a book. 

My peer review of the introduction is here:

https://interpreterpeerreviews.blogspot.com/2025/07/review-anachronisms-accidental-evidence.html

As is common with Interpreter articles, this one is well-intentioned. It no doubt reflects the views of many Latter-day Saints who still believe M2C.

But it also is another example of the difference between apologetics and scholarship, in the sense that it contains the expected omission of relevant material that contradicts the M2C narrative.

See for yourself.

:)

What constitutes an "expert"

In his analysis of a recent Supreme Court case, Jonathan Turley discussed Justice Thomas' concurring opinion. His observation reminds us of the self-appointed "experts" on the Book of Mormon who also "insulate" their M2C opinions as "self-evidently true."

The sentence bolded below applies to the M2Cers who continue to try to persuade Latter-day Saints to disbelieve the teachings of the prophets about the Hill Cumorah in New York.

In his concurrence in United States v. Skrmetti, a case upholding Tennessee’s ban on adolescent transgender treatments, Thomas called for his colleagues to stand against an “expert class” that has dictated both policy and legal conclusions in the United States.

The reference to “experts” is often used to insulate an opinion as self-evidently true on a given question when they speak as a group. It distinguishes the informed from the casual; the certifiably authoritative from the merely interested. Yet, what constitutes an “expert” can be little more than an advanced degree, and the “overwhelming opinion of experts” can be little more than groupthink.

https://jonathanturley.org/2025/06/26/the-icarian-gene-the-rise-and-fall-of-the-expert-class/

Turley went on to briefly review the reasons why the public generally has lost trust in these "experts." I can relate to that.

For decades, I trusted the LDS "experts" at BYU, such as John Sorenson and Jack Welch, regarding the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon. Life was busy, and we all defer to experts in various aspects of our lives.

But then I noticed some inconsistencies and delved into the topic. I discovered the fundamental fallacy of M2C and the rhetorical devices used by the M2C scholars to circumvent and repudiate the teachings of the prophets.  

In my experience, Latter-day Saints who take the responsibility for making their own informed decisions find, like I have, that the "experts" have not been open, transparent, and candid about these topics. Now that the Internet has made authentic Church history sources readily available, the premise of M2C is less credible than ever.

Here's how Turley explained it:

Over the years, the mystique took on a more menacing aspect for many in the country as they watched academic and scientific groups become more advocates than experts. ...

The result has been a dramatic change in trust for higher education and, by extension, the supremacy of the expert class. According to Gallup, only a third of Americans today have great confidence in higher education and roughly the same number have little or no confidence. That is a drop of over twenty percent in the last ten years.

Turley concluded with an important caveat that also applies in the LDS context. If/when such groups as the Interpreter, FAIRLDS, and Scripture Central decide to value open inquiry and a diversity of faithful viewpoints, Latter-day Saints generally will have more confidence in their work.

None of this means that courts or the public should disregard science or experts. Indeed, many experts still follow core principles of unbiased inquiry and discourse. However, good science requires open inquiry and a diversity of viewpoints. Citizens are rejecting science by plebiscite, the self-authenticating petitions where academics purported to speak for an expert class. 

End of M2C: Brant's series

In the ongoing pursuit of clarity, charity and understanding, let's provide some clarity to Brant Gardner's series comparing Heartland to M2C (which the M2C-obsessed Meridian Magazine faithfully republishes).

Brant, who is an awesome guy, careful scholar, faithful Latter-day Saint, etc., has written extensively about the Book of Mormon to promote his M2C (Mesoamerican/Two-Cumorahs) theory. 

But everything he has written reminds me of a talk by then-President Uchtdorf.

The difference between Heartland and M2C "comes down to an error of only a few degrees."

Suppose you were to take off from an airport at the equator, intending to circumnavigate the globe, but your course was off by just one degree. By the time you returned to the same longitude, how far off course would you be? A few miles? A hundred miles? The answer might surprise you. An error of only one degree would put you almost 500 miles (800 km) off course, or one hour of flight for a jet....

The longer we delay corrective action, the larger the needed changes become, and the longer it takes to get back on the correct course—even to the point where a disaster might be looming.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2008/04/a-matter-of-a-few-degrees?lang=eng

The "few degrees" in this case consist of whether or not we believe what the prophets have taught about Cumorah.

If we align with the prophets, the course is clear: Cumorah/Ramah is in New York.

If we're off by even one degree because we reject what the prophets have taught, we end up with theories such as M2C (the Mesoamerican/Two-Cumorahs theory), the Baja theory, the Peru theory, the Malaysia theory, or any number of other theories, including the "pious fiction" theory.

Every proponent can rationalize his/her theory by interpreting the text to fit while also citing extrinsic scientific evidence. People debate the relative credibility of their various interpretations and evidence, leading to "a strife of words and a contest about opinions." (Joseph Smith—History 1:6)

A solution would be pursuing clarity, charity and understanding instead of trying to persuade. People can believe whatever they want, and that's fine.

People want to make informed decisions, and we should be happy that Brant has made an effort in that direction. 

However, as always, clarity is the sticking point.

So let's start with clarity about 2 points.

_____

Point 1 

The location of Cumorah does not determine any other Book of Mormon sites. People who accept the teachings of the prophets can have a wide range of beliefs about the scope of the Book of Mormon setting, and that's all fine. The Gospel Topics entry on Book of Mormon geography recognizes this diversity. 

Note that the entry does not even mention Cumorah, which makes sense because Cumorah, as Oliver said, is a fact and well attested. The entry does not repudiate any teachings of the prophets. 

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Point 2

We can all see that Brant and his fellow M2Cers base their entire theory on one basic premise:

Oliver Cowdery misled everyone when he declared it was a fact that the final battles of the Nephites and Jaredites took place in the mile-wide valley west of the hill Cumorah/Ramah in New York where Joseph found the plates.

http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1834-1836/90

Because of this premise that leads them off by one degree, M2Cers even claim that Joseph Smith adopted this "false" Cumorah. (D&C 128:20)

M2Cers claim that Lucy Mack Smith falsely reported that it was Moroni who identified the hill as Cumorah when he first visited Joseph Smith, and that she falsely reported that Joseph referred to the hill as Cumorah even before he got the plates.

M2Cers claim that David Whitmer falsely reported that the messenger who had the abridged plates said he was going to Cumorah. 

M2Cers claim that Parley P. Pratt falsely reported that during the 1830 mission to the Lamanites, Oliver explained that it was Moroni who called the hill Cumorah.

M2Cers claim that all the prophets who have reiterated the New York Cumorah/Ramah, including members of the First Presidency speaking in General Conference, have been merely expressing their own opinions and that those opinions were wrong such that they were misleading the Latter-day Saints.

That President Uchtdorf used a volcano in his example is fitting because M2Cers, having veered off course by one degree, lead their followers to believe that the Book of Mormon describes the volcanoes in Mesoamerica.

That's not an unreasonable interpretation.

But it's far from the only reasonable interpretation.

Readers naturally wonder why a civilization living for a thousand years in a limited area of Mesoamerica described volcanoes only once, and didn't even use a term that Joseph would have translated as "volcano." 

Obviously there is much more we could say (and have said), but it is useful to see how one simple degree of variance from the teachings of the prophets can lead to a voluminous body of rationalization, such as Brant has been publishing.

And it's all good. People can believe whatever they want.

But every Latter-day Saint deserves to know exactly what the premise of M2C is and how every theory can be rationalized through interpretation of the text and use of extrinsic evidence.

We all just need to ask, are we on the course Oliver and Joseph and their successors mapped out for us, or have we veered off by one or more degrees?

Improving Church websites

I frequently meet faithful Latter-day Saints, including long-time "seasoned" members, who have no idea what the prophets have taught about Cumorah.

Seasoned members who attended seminary or institute learned at least some of what the prophets have taught because some of the materials were included in the lesson manuals. Some even remember President Romney's talk about Cumorah in 1975. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1975/10/americas-destiny?lang=eng

But that was eons ago for most current Latter-day Saints. 

Young and new Latter-day Saints have virtually no chance to learn about Cumorah.

This is why I put "clarity" as the first element of "no more contention" when I refer to the pursuit of clarity, charity and understanding.

Clarity enables people to make informed decisions. Clarity avoids the misunderstanding and mistrust that results from conflating assumptions and inferences with facts. Clarity shines a light on truncated and altered quotations.

That's why I appeal to everyone interested in these issues, including both apologists and critics, to focus on clarity. The FAITH model (Facts, Assumptions, Inferences, Theories, and Hypotheses) eliminates any basis for contention, all with the goal of No More Contention.

But as we'll see, clarity remains elusive...

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/learn/locations/hill-cumorah?lang=eng

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One reason why Latter-day Saints are both confused and ignorant about Cumorah is the way the topic is presented by the Church History Department.

The Church History Department is awesome. They are world-class historians, preservationists, authors, etc. The Joseph Smith Papers, the Church History Museum, the Church History Library, and everything else they do are easy to access, transparent, accurate, and outstanding in every way.

In some cases, however, narratives written by the historians are guided by unstated narratives that lead to unfortunate and unnecessarily incomplete and even misleading material.

In the pursuit of clarity, charity and understanding, and with the objective of "no more contention," I occasionally offer suggestions for improvement. Among the materials I've suggested improvements for are the Saints books, the Joseph Smith Papers, and various Church websites with content from the Church History Department.

While I recognize that many of these projects were completed in the past and have no staff currently assigned to them, I hope that someone at the Church History Department will take the time to correct the obvious errors for both (i) current members and (ii) future generations.

Even though printed materials cannot be revised, digital materials can (and should) be improved whenever errors are noted.

_____

Regarding Cumorah specifically, the entry on Cumorah on the Historic Sites page, which I linked to with the photo above, has lots of problems. I discussed that website here:

https://www.ldshistoricalnarratives.com/2025/06/improving-church-websites-cumorah.html

The censorship of Cumorah in Saints, Volume 1, is well known. One example is my discussion here: https://saintsreview.blogspot.com/2018/10/the-historians-explain-censorship-in.html

Then there is the editorial content in the Joseph Smith Papers.

https://www.academia.edu/67756647/Agenda_driven_editorial_content_in_the_Joseph_Smith_Papers

MOBOM updates

The Museum of the Book of Mormon (mobom.org) regularly adds new content and updates existing articles.

One of the most popular articles is the recently-revised analysis of the chapter in Rough Stone Rolling that covers the translation, which you can read here:

https://www.mobom.org/rsr-review

Although Rough Stone Rolling was published many years ago, it is often quoted/cited for the theory that Joseph Smith produced the Book of Mormon with the stone-in-the-hat (SITH) instead of using the Urim and Thummim, as Joseph and Oliver always claimed.

Some of the Church History articles have been revised as well.

https://www.mobom.org/church-history-issues

The page explaining the two sets of plates (abridged plates in Harmony, plates of Nephi in Fayette) has been revised and updated:

https://www.mobom.org/two-sets-of-plates

MOBOM continues to make incremental improvements in response to reader/user feedback.