long ago ideas

“When we are tired, we are attacked by ideas we conquered long ago." - Friedrich Nietzsche. Long ago, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery conquered false claims that the Book of Mormon was fiction or that it came through a stone in a hat. But these old claims have resurfaced in recent years. To conquer them again, we have to return to what Joseph and Oliver taught.

Friday, January 10, 2025

Tyler Griffin's answers

Scripture Central announced some changes in their offerings in 2025.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DEX_qfuqe0R/?igsh=MXhyazV0ZTk4aWVrNQ%3D%3D

One change is Tyler Griffin's new project:

Tyler Griffin has decided to start a video series on the Scripture Central YouTube channel delving into the most common questions investigators ask the missionaries. It will hopefully be a great resource for missionaries and friends curious about the faith alike.

Tyler is awesome. He's highly educated and experienced, he's effective, he's enthusiastic, and he's a great guy. 

Like Tyler, we all agree that the main purpose of the Book of Mormon is to convince people that Jesus is the Christ. Anything that encourages people to read and study the Book of Mormon will help fulfill that purpose. Surely Tyler's set of answers will be useful and inspirational for many people.

Except for his answers about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon. 

Like every other post on this blog, this one is intended as a suggestion for improvement, a move toward transparency and accommodation of multiple working hypotheses, all in the pursuit of clarity, charity and understanding.

We're fine with Tyler teaching whatever he wants. We continue to hope that he will acknowledge that there are other faithful interpretations and that he will inform his students, readers, viewers and listeners about those alternatives.

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The first two questions that 97.6% of new readers of the Book of Mormon have is "Where did this book come from?" (origin) and "Where did these events take place?" (setting)

Tyler's answer to the first question presumably consists of Scripture Central's stone-in-the-hat (SITH) explanation, including Royal Skousen's obvious and inevitable SITH conclusion that Joseph and Oliver intentionally misled everyone about the translation.

That's obviously problematic for those of us who still believe what Joseph and Oliver claimed, along with the evidence that corroborates their claims.

But that's not the only attack on the credibility of Joseph and Oliver from Tyler and Scripture Central.

Let's focus on the second question people ask: "Where did these events take place?"

Tyler's answer will undoubtedly consist of Scripture Central's Mesoamerican/two-Cumorahs theory (M2C) which consists of three elements:

1. There are two main locations of Book of Mormon events: the Old World of Jerusalem/Israel and the Arabian peninsula, and the New World of the Americas. Most Latter-day Saints agree with this.

2. Some Old World locations are known, such as Jerusalem, while locations of others are less certain but probable, such as "Bountiful," the place from which Lehi sailed, being in Salalah, Oman, or another site along the coast. Most Latter-day Saints agree with this.

3. No New World locations are known, so we use an imaginary map to explain the Book of Mormon, pursuant to these principles. 

3a. The prophets were wrong about the hill Cumorah/Ramah in New York. 

3b. The prophets were correct about "the Americas."

3c. The best way to understand the book of Mormon is by using an imaginary (fantasy) map.


Some Latter-day Saints agree with this, but many do not.

Analysis.

The text of the Book of Mormon doesn't mention any modern geographical locations. Not even America. 

Joseph found the plates in New York, which suggests that the events took place in New York, but the text itself doesn't say that. Based on the text alone, the events could have taken place anywhere in the world, which is why some have proposed sites in Africa and Asia.

Let's look at the three parts of element 3.

3.a. Cumorah. 

The historical record gives us extrinsic insight into the setting of the Book of Mormon events. This includes not only Joseph Smith's own explanation that he learned about Cumorah before he got the plates (D&C 128:20) but his mother's explanation that Moroni told Joseph the first time they met that the plates were in the Hill Cumorah near their house, and that Joseph referred to the hill as Cumorah before he ever obtained the plates.

We have Moroni's explanation to Joseph that the history was "written and deposited not far from" Joseph's house, which means Mormon and Moroni both wrote the record in the vicinity of Palmyra. 

We have Oliver Cowdery's declaration that it is a fact that the hill in New York is the very hill Cumorah/Ramah mentioned in the text. Oliver was Assistant President of the Church when he made that formal declaration, and he did so in collaboration with Joseph Smith, who not only had the declaration copied into his own history, but had it republished for all Latter-day Saints to read and understand, including in the Times and Seasons, the Gospel Reflector, the Millennial Star, and The Prophet (a New York-based newspaper edited by his brother William). Later in Utah, it was republished in the Improvement Era.

We have explicit statements from Joseph's successors in Church leadership that corroborate the New York Cumorah, including testimony from members of the First Presidency speaking in General Conference. 

These and more references are found here: https://www.mobom.org/church-history-issues

But along with everyone else at Scripture Central, Tyler explicitly rejects and repudiates all of these teachings about the New York Cumorah. That's why he created his fantasy map, which we'll discuss below.

This leads to part 3.b.

3.b. The Americas

Despite rejecting the New York Cumorah, Tyler and Scripture Central have concluded that the events took place in the Americas, based on the teachings of the prophets. But the same prophets who taught the events took place in America also taught Cumorah was in New York. How do we explain this inconsistency?

One rationale for rejecting the New York Cumorah is the assertion that there was no revelation about Cumorah. This, despite D&C 128:20 and the historical record about Moroni revealing the name Cumorah to Joseph Smith and the messenger Nephi telling David Whitmer about Cumorah. Beyond these known revelations, we have the reported experience of  Joseph and Oliver having visited Mormon's repository of records in the hill, etc.

But let's follow the logic where it leads. 

If there was no revelation about Cumorah (and no personal experience with Cumorah), there was also no revelation about America, the American continent, the Western Hemisphere, etc. No one has cited any revelation about the Americas, apart from what Joseph and Oliver taught in the first place.

The knowledge that the events took place in America arose from Moroni's explanation to Joseph about Cumorah in the first place; i.e., that the history was written and deposited not far from Joseph's home, and that it "gave a history of the aborigenes [sic] of this country." In the Wentworth letter, Joseph even explained that Lehi's descendants "are the Indians that now inhabit this country," thereby correcting Orson Pratt's speculation about Central America.  

https://www.mobom.org/wentworth-orson-pratt

Obviously, the M2C explanation--rejecting what the prophets said about Cumorah but accepting what they said about the Americas, which is derived from the fact that Cumorah is in New York--is irrational. 

That irrationality doesn't mean there is a problem with Tyler offering this inconsistency as one of multiple working hypotheses. The problem is he doesn't also offer the alternative evidence and interpretations that corroborate the teachings of the prophets. IOW, he makes an irrational argument but doesn't tell people about a rational interpretation.

3.c. The imaginary map.

Although the location of Cumorah/Ramah in New York is well established in the historical record, that does not determine the location of any other events in the Book of Mormon. The New York Cumorah/Ramah accommodates a wide range of possibilities, ranging from a limited geography around New York all the way to the hemispheric setting that was favored by some early Church members. 

The variety of possibilities, combined with the destruction of ancient sites and geological changes, explains why Church leaders have never identified any other Book of Mormon sites, apart from D&C 125, which is ambiguous, some second-hand accounts regarding Manti and a few other places, and Joseph Smith's identification of Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois as the "plains of the Nephites." 

This is reflected in the Gospel Topics entry on Book of Mormon Geography, which focuses on geography theories. The entry says nothing about Cumorah/Ramah, but correctly points out that there are numerous theories about the setting of the Book of Mormon, none of which have prophetic authority. 

The omission of Cumorah/Ramah from that entry is significant because it avoids the direct and explicit repudiation of the teachings of the prophets.

But Scripture Central generally, and Tyler Griffin specifically, don't follow that example. Instead, they insist the prophets were wrong about Cumorah. Scripture Central puts Cumorah/Ramah in southern Mexico to make their geography theory work. Tyler puts it in the equivalent position on his fantasy map.

Tyler's map with his Cumorah circled

We can all see that Scripture Central and Tyler Griffin persist in trying to persuade Latter-day Saints (and their friends) to reject what Joseph and Oliver taught about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon, all to promote their private speculations and theories about the Mesoamerican setting.

With that foundation, does it matter much how Tyler answers the other questions people ask?

_____

I write all of this in my ongoing hope that Scripture Central will someday abandon its dogmatic repudiation of the teachings of the prophets about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon and at least acknowledge and accommodate alternative faithful evidence and interpretations so Latter-day Saints can make informed decisions.








Thursday, January 9, 2025

Facts vs assumptions

Everyone involved with the study of the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon owes it to fellow Latter-day Saints, and the world as a whole, to 

(i) clarify their unity regarding the facts, and

(ii) clarify their respective assumptions, inferences and theories.

Then everyone can make informed decisions without any contention.

Why is this so difficult for some people to accept?

Unity in diversity

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The distinction between facts and assumptions explains the main difference between 

(i) the M2Cers at Scripture Central, FAIRLDS, the Interpreter, etc. 

and 

(ii) those Latter-day Saints who still believe what the prophets have taught about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon (let's call them Heartlanders even though they have multiple working hypotheses and don't work for any organizations like the M2Cers). 

Once everyone recognizes the distinction between Facts and Assumptions (along with inferences, theories, and hypotheses), we can all see clearly, with charity and understanding, and thereby make informed decisions in openness and transparency. 

This process eliminates contention because it eliminates the compulsion to convince others. Everyone can freely reach their own conclusions and understand why others reach different conclusions. We can all enjoy unity in diversity.

_____ 

Facts. M2Cers and Heartlanders agree that there is a clear, unambiguous set of facts about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon consisting of historical documents that contain direct statements from Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, their contemporaries and their successors in Church leadership. We can all read the documents for ourselves in the Joseph Smith Papers and other sources. 

Key point: No one disagrees about the existence of these facts. 

Assumptions. The facts--the existence of a document and its contents--do not determine anyone's beliefs. Instead, assumptions about those facts lead to the various theories people develop, the main assumptions being whether or not the contents are reliable, accurate, trustworthy, etc.

This is why, even though M2Cers and Heartlanders agree about the facts, they derive quite different theories from the identical facts. IOW, disagreements between M2Cers and Heartlanders arise from their assumptions and inferences about those facts, not from the facts per se.

For example, M2Cers assume that when Oliver Cowdery declared it was a fact that the hill in New York is the Hill Cumorah/Ramah of the Book of Mormon, he was merely speculating and was wrong. They assume that Lucy Mack Smith falsely reported that the first time he appeared to Joseph Smith, Moroni identified the location of the plates as the Hill of Cumorah. They assume that D&C 128:20 reflects Joseph's adoption of this false narrative, and so on.

Heartlanders, by contrast, assume that Oliver, Lucy, Joseph and others were relating the truth.

This difference in assumptions should be crystal clear for everyone to see. 

Those who object to transparency should question their motivations, and it should be clear to everyone who favors transparency and who opposes it.

What drives assumptions. People generally make assumptions to confirm their biases. 

Using Oliver as an example, M2Cers and Heartlanders alike assume the veracity of Oliver's testimony about the existence of the plates and the Urim and Thummim, the restoration of the Priesthood, and the restoration of important keys for missionary and temple work. 

Where they differ is in their assumptions about Oliver's statements about the hill Cumorah/Ramah. (The SITH issue is similar.)

M2Cers assume that Oliver's statement of fact was actually false because they have convinced themselves that the hill in New York is too far from the Mesoamerican setting they have assumed and therefore cannot be the Hill Cumorah/Ramah of the Book of Mormon.

Heartlanders assume that Oliver told the truth about Cumorah/Ramah because he had good reason to know and because they accept Oliver's testimony about the other events. 

Based on those two different assumptions, both groups follow the same systematic approach toward the text and extrinsic evidence:

The text. M2Cers and Heartlanders alike make assumptions about the text of the Book of Mormon and draw inferences (interpretations) that corroborate their respective assumptions about the veracity and reliability of the contents of the historical documents regarding Cumorah.

Extrinsic evidence. M2Cers and Heartlanders alike appeal to extrinsic evidence (archaeology, anthropology, geology, geography, etc.) to corroborate their respective assumptions.

Usually the debates on the setting of the Book of Mormon focus on the respective interpretations and extrinsic evidence, which is a red herring fallacy. It is axiomatic that everyone will find ways to confirm their biases.

The different biases arise from different assumptions about the facts. Secondary differences (interpretations and extrinsic evidence) flow from the different assumptions.

_____

At the present time, M2Cers and Heartlanders also differ in their approaches to these issues. 

Heartlanders welcome and encourage transparent comparisons between the two sets of assumptions, inferences, and theories.

M2Cers (at least those who manage Scripture Central, FAIRLDS, and the Interpreter) discourage and resist transparent comparisons between the two sets of assumptions, inferences, and theories.

Impartial observers can easily see which approach is more effective at enabling people to make informed decisions.

_____

To repeat, this is why everyone involved with the study of the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon owes it to fellow Latter-day Saints, and the world as a whole, to 

(i) clarify their unity regarding the facts, and

(ii) clarify their respective assumptions, inferences and theories.

Then everyone can make informed decisions without any contention.

Why is this so difficult?



Tuesday, January 7, 2025

First X, then FB: is Scripture Central next?


Today, Mark Zuckerberg announced that Facebook and Instagram are going to embrace free speech and openness, similar to the way X has been doing. 

This is a model that Scripture Central could/should follow, as discussed below. 

The legacy media is dying because people are realizing it promotes coordinated narratives that deprive readers and viewers of context and the full range of information and perspectives. That's the identical problem with current LDS apologetics, most glaringly at Scripture Central.

Here is Zuckerberg's explanation:

https://x.com/BasedBeffJezos/status/1876602383754789079

Excerpts:

More specifically, here's what we're going to do.

First, we're going to get rid of fact checkers and replace them with community notes similar to X, starting in the U.S.,

We tried in good faith to address those concerns without becoming the arbiters of truth.

But the fact checkers have just been too politically biased and have destroyed more trust than they've created…

... what started as a movement to be more inclusive has increasing been used to shut down opinions and shut out people with different ideas and it's gone too far so I want to make sure that people can share their beliefs and experiences on our platforms

One commentator describes the change this way:

Zuckerberg is insanely smart and capable. (I could end the analysis here.)

He's reading the room. He's a patriot. Apparently, he likes free speech as much as you do and sees the same issues you see.

Business-wise, he needs the US government to pressure other nations to stop censoring. No other way.

Facebook has been crippled by their own biased fact-checkers. Community Notes works, so he's a fast-follower. 

Summary: Smart, perfectly timed, on point.

_____

Like Zuckerberg, the founders and management of Scripture Central are smart and capable. But they don't read the room and they don't value openness, even within the zone of faithful Latter-day Saints.

Since its founding, I've hoped that Book of Mormon Central, and lately Scripture Central, would become an inclusive resource for all Latter-day Saints and their friends. 

The people who work and volunteer there are awesome in every way and have tremendous potential. I suspect most of them value openness, along with freedom of speech and thought. Most want to help people make informed decisions, despite the editorial policies of their management that opposes these values.

Scripture Central could immediately become a legitimate academic resource where faithful Latter-day Saints can learn about and discuss a variety of faithful perspectives. 

But sadly, the organization instead remains a dogmatic promoter of specific narratives designed to persuade Latter-day Saints to disbelieve what Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery said about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon.

In coming days I'll post more examples of this dogmatic content from Scripture Central.

_____



 

Friday, January 3, 2025

New Year's Resolution: Scripture Central

In 2025, Scripture Central could become a resource for all faithful Latter-day Saints and their friends by simply adopting some New Year's Resolutions:

- educate readers, viewers and listeners about the authentic Church history sources regarding the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon

- accurately compare alternative interpretations of the historical record regarding the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon

- accommodate all faithful Latter-day Saints with clarity, charity, and understanding

_____

We all realize this would be a significant change for Scripture Central. 

It would mean Scripture Central's Board would change its editorial policy to embrace clarity, charity and understanding instead of merely advocating the personal beliefs of Jack Welch and his followers.

But imagine how much this new editorial policy would promote unity among Latter-day Saints!

We don't expect it to happen, given the current management of Scripture Central, but we hope that, eventually, the awesome people who work at and contribute to Scripture Central will make the change and join other Latter-day Saints in the pursuit of clarity, charity and understanding.

_____

In 2025, people everywhere prefer clarity over obfuscation, charity over intransigence, and understanding over compulsion. People resent censorship, misdirection, and sophistry. 

They want to make informed decisions instead of being told they should defer to experts. They want accurate information, not propaganda.

People are smart. They can figure things out when they are fully informed, open-minded, and attune to the Spirit of God.




Wednesday, January 1, 2025

2025: the year of MOBOM

The online Museum of the Book of Mormon (MOBOM.org) already has a lot of material, but more is coming in 2025. Most of the questions people ask me are already answered on mobom.org


MOBOM focuses on

- the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon (evidence of its divine authenticity)

- the teachings and purpose of the Book of Mormon (convincing the world that Jesus is the Christ)

Here are some examples of the content on MOBOM:

1. Church history issues related to the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon:

https://www.mobom.org/church-history-issues

2. Discussion of Joseph Smith's early years, showing how the Lord prepared him from an early age to become the prophet/translator of the Restoration:

https://www.mobom.org/joseph-smith-early-years

3. Corroboration of Joseph's claim that he translated the plates, such as the Jonathan Edwards connection, including annotations of chapters in the Book of Mormon and sections in the Doctrine and Covenants:

https://www.mobom.org/jonathan-edwards

4. Photos, maps, and other aids, such as these photos from Salalah, Oman:

https://www.mobom.org/salalah-oman

5. Discussion of the teachings of the prophets, such as these references to "this land"

https://www.mobom.org/lehis-promised-land-references

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Some people ask how MOBOM differs from Scripture Central, FAIRLDS, the Interpreter, and their other collaborators.

The main difference is that MOBOM promotes clarity, charity and understanding. 

MOBOM recognizes that people have a variety of opinions and interpretations. 

MOBOM encourages Latter-day Saints to make informed decisions for themselves without deferring to, relying upon, or simply believing LDS scholars who promote their own agendas (such as SITH and M2C). (SITH = "stone-in-the-hat" theory; M2C=Mesoamerican/two-Cumorahs theory)

The other sites listed above instead promote specific agendas based on the personal beliefs of their principals (Jack Welch, Scott Gordon, and Dan Peterson, respectively) and their followers. These sites eschew comparisons and open, civil dialog.  

MOBOM differs from the other sites because its editorial policies include:

- support for and corroboration of the teachings of Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, along with their successors, regarding the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon

- links to authentic original sources

- frequent updates and improvements based on user input and additional information 

- comparison between and among multiple working hypotheses to promote clarity pursuant to the FAITH model of analysis (Facts, Assumptions, Inferences, Theories, Hypotheses).

- participation and input from anyone interested in contributing 

To help readers make comparisons and informed decisions, MOBOM includes links to Scripture Central, FAIRLDS, and the Interpreter. 

The FAITH model starts with Facts because everyone can (or should) agree on basic facts (such as the existence and content of a historical document). Once facts are isolated, everyone can see clearly how various assumptions, inferences, and theories lead to the widely divergent worldviews or hypotheses, ranging from faithful to agnostic to antagonistic.

_____

During 2025, MOBOM will expand to offer more resources pursuant to the objectives and policies outlined above.

Tuesday, December 31, 2024

2024 year-end report


Some interesting 2024 statistics from Google analytics.

Views of this blog in 2024: 1.03M

Total views of my main blogs: 2,700,565

There has been a lot of engagement with the Museum of the Book of Mormon (www.mobom.org) as well, particular with these pages:

https://www.mobom.org/church-history-issues

https://www.mobom.org/rsr-review

https://www.mobom.org/jonathan-edwards

It's interesting also that some of the most viewed posts on this blog are legacy posts, including these from 2016:

https://www.bookofmormoncentralamerica.com/2016/08/introductory-post.html

https://www.bookofmormoncentralamerica.com/2016/05/simplicity.html

https://www.bookofmormoncentralamerica.com/2016/05/proving-contrarieties.html

Most viewed pages on this blog: 

https://www.bookofmormoncentralamerica.com/p/acronyms-used-in-this-blog.html

https://www.bookofmormoncentralamerica.com/p/table-comparing-1-new-york-cumorah-to.html

_____

Besides this blog, the most viewed blogs have been these (with the most viewed posts this year):

https://www.lettervii.com/

https://www.lettervii.com/2017/01/the-hill-cumorah-by-president-anthony-w.html

https://www.lettervii.com/2017/01/why-some-people-reject-letter-vii.html 

https://www.ldshistoricalnarratives.com/

https://www.ldshistoricalnarratives.com/2024/02/march-2024-liahona-articles-on.html

 https://www.ldshistoricalnarratives.com/2022/12/nativity-artwork-and-false-narratives.html

https://nomorecontention.blogspot.com/

https://nomorecontention.blogspot.com/2023/06/no-more-contention-over-book-of-mormon.html

https://interpreterpeerreviews.blogspot.com/

https://interpreterpeerreviews.blogspot.com/2024/12/review-of-brant-gardners-review-of-by.html

Enjoy!




Friday, December 27, 2024

2024 thoughts on Cumorah

At the end of 2024, it's interesting to review some discussions about the setting of the Book of Mormon that have taken place on social media. 

Discussion of alternatives can be productive in teaching us how to sedulously pursue clarity, charity and understanding without contention. Contention arises from the compulsion to have others agree with us, which is obviously contrary to the spirit of unity. Instead, we can find unity in diversity. 

Faithful Latter-day Saints agree that the message of the Book of Mormon is more important than where it took place, but that's axiomatic. It's not a rational argument for ignoring the setting because obviously, lots of things that are important are not as important as more important things. 

Some LDS say that if the setting was important, the Lord would have revealed it. But that's mixing two separate concepts: (i) the location of Cumorah/Ramah and (ii) the setting of other events.

Apparently many young and new LDS don't realize that the prophets have unambiguously taught that Cumorah/Ramah is in New York. When he was Assistant President of the Church, working closely with Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery wrote the first history of the Church, including details about Moroni's visit and the Hill Cumorah/Ramah. He stated it was a fact that the hill in New York was the scene of the final battles of the Nephites and Jaredites. 

http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1834-1836/90

Joseph confirmed that in D&C 128. Thus the issue is whether or not we believe what the prophets have taught.

Some LDS justify their repudiation of what the prophets have taught by claiming that 

(i) the prophets were wrong and were merely speculating, and 

(ii) the Cumorah in New York doesn't fit with the geographical descriptions in the text, or is not supported by extrinsic evidence. 

But notice that their claims are based on their own interpretations of the text and the evidence. 

The text itself can be easily interpreted to describe the New York Cumorah/Ramah, and the extrinsic evidence corroborates the teachings of the prophets. After all, Joseph and Oliver were quite familiar with the text--as well as Moroni, Nephi, the repository of Nephite records, etc.

Knowing that Cumorah/Ramah is in New York doesn't resolve the setting of other places and events in the Book of Mormon. This is where discussion of alternatives can help us each pursue clarity, charity and understanding without contention. 

If you're interested in the setting of the Book of Mormon, pay attention to which individuals and organizations promote clarity, charity and understanding, vs those who insist on only one interpretation and refuse to compare alternatives.  

Here are some posts on X from the last year.

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https://x.com/slc_saint/status/1758950391926907288

I recently switched from the Meso-American team to the Heartland team. It was a slow conversion. Where did Nephi and his brother Jacob dwell? 10 But behold, this land, said God, shall be a land of thine inheritance, and the Gentiles shall be blessed upon the land. 11 And this land shall be a land of liberty unto the Gentiles, and there shall be no kings upon the land, who shall raise up unto the Gentiles. 12 And I will fortify this land against all other nations. (2 Nephi 10:10-12) Most of Latin America did not get their Independence until the 1800's. For 300 years, the Spanish Empire would expand across the Caribbean Islands, half of South America, almost all of Central America, and the southern part of North America. Central America: Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, and Panama South America: Peru, Ecuador, Chile, Argentina, and parts of Colombia, Venezuela, and Brazil Caribbean islands: Española, Puerto Rico, Jamaica, and Cuba

https://x.com/LDSMormon/status/1758240631091290510

After more than 40 years of research regarding Book of Mormon geography, I have very strong feelings regarding the places where the events took place, and I can back up my claims. But, I am no longer participating in any discussion regarding this issue. How many times in the Book of Mormon do we see that soon after a contentious issue arises, something disastrous takes place in the country. We are seeing heated debates, of which I have been a vocal participant in, divide the church causing many to question a great many of things. This should not be. I’m urging everyone to just put aside every discussion about geography and just read the book. Everything else is a distraction away from the greatest book on the earth allowing a wedge to be inserted in the midst of all of us, causing us to not be as one. I don’t care what side you’re on, please drop it. Let’s stick with the powerful messages that it contains and remember the fact the church leadership has said that there is no revelation given regarding actual locations. I’ve seen people on both sides claim that the Holy Ghost has testified of the truthfulness of these plans. They are wrong. We cannot receive inspiration from the Holy Ghost on this subject when the brethren have spoken out in such a way. Anyone who claims otherwise has been deceived. Please don’t buy any books, attend any seminars, support archaeological digs, or be involved in these discussions. When the spirit of contention is part of these meetings, the Holy Spirit leaves. I don’t know about you, but I need the Holy Spirit in my life right now. I’m not willing to do anything to cause him to leave. There has never been a time when we needed to be more, “as one“ than right now. This is part of the reason why our adversary keeps raising this contentious issue. If he can keep us separated, we cannot be redeemed in Zion. Zion is our only hope for the future calamities that are coming. Let’s strive to be as one.


This is a good reminder that contention is not worth engaging in. There are also people having polite discussions about this topic and it's really interesting. Is your objection more the contention or the topic?


Striving to be one is not going to happen by not addressing this issue and other issues that divide in the church. Problems in a family cannot be brushed under the rug—they only fester. Trying to understand opposing points of view-good. It can be done without personal insults.

I appreciate what you have said, and I agree with most of it! But... if you read actual transcripts/history of Joseph Smith & Oliver Cowdery they state multiple times where things took place. Its sad that people say Josephs a prophet but won't believe in his own BOM statements.